5R engine swap for 18R?

Discussion in 'Engine/Drivetrain' started by liteace, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. liteace

    liteace Newbie

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    Hello fellas Im hoping someone can help with a possible 1978 Dyna 5R upgrade

    Although my 5r still runs well, after 230,000km I have thought about putting in a higher compression 18R OHC motor. The problem is I dont know how I would match the 18R to the box bellhousing. The reason I was thinking of the 18R is that its also a fantastic motor and I know someone who has one rebuilt with higher compression, re-ground cam for better economy, electric dizzie, goes very well and very cheap but in a corona which came with them factory.

    Does anyone know if an 18R can match up to my 5 speed column Dyna?
     
  2. kamesama980

    kamesama980 Addict

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    All the newer toyotas (80s, 90s) use the same bolt patterm and engine mounts within a family. IE any R block should fit any bellhousing for any other R engine. However that's what's normal for toyota and not gauranteed nor does it mean the flywheel and other parts will mate up.
     
  3. whysmee

    whysmee Enthusiast

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    There is no bolt up options for the 5R, I own stout and the 5R is as good as it gets unless you plan on more significant modification to fit the larger 5 speed and 22R out of a 1985 toyota coaster, which if in Australia that ain't so straight forward anymore due to modification requirements of front disc brakes for all vehicles with a gvm of less than 4.5t.
    Otherwise both dellow and castlemaine rod shop offer a wide range of others engine options via adapter kits for straight six, v6 and v8, as well as adapter to fit 18r but they are no longer legal like they once were without doing extensive steering column redesign for the collapsible version required and disc front brakes first and and and.
     
  4. liteace

    liteace Newbie

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    Kamesama - I wish that was true but most likely not :( Id love an 18R or even 3Y motor.

    Darn it Whysmee thank you! :)

    well is there any way to get information on some sizing of engine parts eg. block height, rod big end width, length, piston compression height and valve sizes would be great as they are not in my 5r engine repair manual.
    I would really like to rebuild a 5r motor with more compression (maybe use 12r head?), longer rods and shorter pistons.
    The 12R head attracts me as it would get more compression as its stock 80mm bore gives same 8.5:1 compression as the 5R which has 88mm bores so should bring it up higher with extra 400cc but maybe too high? My calcs go from 8.5:1 to 10.563:1 but could mill piston 1mm and get 9.544:1 or use concave piston -8.6 to -9cc or so.

    I found this link to some sizes but none for the mentioned.
    5R Spec
     
  5. whysmee

    whysmee Enthusiast

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    12r heads are not able to fit a 5r, was sold a 12r head accidentally and found out the hard way.
    The early ohv r engines were a pain as thet were not interchangeable with the ohc versions, nor were the 3r and 5r with the r or 2r as the engine mounts were different as the engines were shorter, the 12r was a revision of the 2r.
    Now I do not like the 18r, the 16r was a better engine as the 18 was lazy and those that put 18 in the stouts to replace the 5r regretted it and parked them, yes the 5r is an awesome underrated engine and might not be desired such as the 18r-g which were better suited to a race track than the road.
    So back to the 5r and compared to such as a 253 holden v8 it is an exceptionally well built engine that for it's size is extremely powerful at around 100hp, I have sought for years about performance modifications for them and found gianttomato, yet modifying the engine proves little due to them being a heavy low revving engine in the first place, so forced induction such as a small supercharger or turbo
     
  6. liteace

    liteace Newbie

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    Even if the 12R head is from a 1980 hiace van wouldnt that fit a 1978 5R or too short as you say?
    Shame if that is the case.

    The 18R-c I had was shaven with more compression, secondary throttle made mechanical and 4 into 2 into 1 headers and was a big difference to the stock 18r. Its in a Hiace with a luton peak box used for furniture removals and the owner also has a corona wagon with a stock 18R-c just headers, electronic ignition and has done over 460,000kms without a hitch with just normal servicing.

    I think stock 18r-c with pollution gear they are a horribly asthmatic engine but without the egr and headers they waken up completely as even the 5r exhaust cast iron exhaust manifold are better breathing than the 18rc ones. My brother also had a corona sedan with the same engine and we where surprised how well it went removing all the egr gear alone. That thing even did 2000+km in without any oil leaving a mark on the dip stick when his wife damaged the sump going over a massive pothole only to later take it to the mechanic for him to find it had no oil and needed a new sump which was done and they drove it for another 5 years just topping it off with oil every few months.

    There is a lot more than meets the eye in these engines and the same for the 18R OHC version which with a few little tweaks makes full use of its better crankshaft design and smooth OHC head.
    The twin cam is an amazing engine for rpm but no torque whatsoever yet in a Dyna or other highly geared truck it would be perfect as the gearing is crazy low. My diff is I think 6.2:1 and has crawler like gear for first gear. I dont know what the rpm is at cruising 100kmhr or 120kmhr on some roads but Im sure with a revvy engine it wouldnt be bad considering the gearing. I even thought about a 7afe conversion but want nothing to do with cam belts.

    I do like the simplicity of the 5R and in no way or form interested in a holden 6 conversion or other non toyota engine unless it can provide the same reliability & better economy.

    Also before I forget Im about to buy a new carby from here do you think its a good price? or are there better places?
    http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Guar...s-service-wholesale-and-retail/543215866.html
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  7. whysmee

    whysmee Enthusiast

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    The early dyna toyoace stout delta coaster used an r series gearbox, the later models an m series and an m engine if the correct parts were able to be obtained is an option. The 18r in the sedans and hilux is not the same as in the hiace and are not interchangeable having different holes in the engine block to mount everything including engine mounts, I have had a couple of the import 16r engines, many 18r and wasted way to much time and money on 18r-g with my favorite being the 16r. When you compare stats between the 5r and other r engines the 12r is impressive but the rest considering are not, Wikipedia has a reasonable bit of info, although not real vast on unfavorable engines Toyota R engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I have spoken to many about options and those that I have obtained 5r from and the general concensus they were under rated and are well suited to low level boost, one of the people I spoke to when he first left school worked for a place in Brisbane that fitted holden engines replacing the 5r in the 70's, my uncle did services on them in the 70's as well retired automotive engineer, combined with his son are part of my brains trust for my sole lpg turbo 5r.

    Edit

    I have never replaced either the aisan or nikki carburetors, the only issue I have ever had is the large sight glass on the nikki leaking, the only originals I have ever replaced were the solex on the 18r-g as needing to do 4500rpm on takeoff was bs so it was replaced by a 290 economax holley (version of 350) which we fitted venturi sleeves to as well
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  8. liteace

    liteace Newbie

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    Thanks WM any idea if that carb above is a good price? got quote anything from 200 to 500 to rebuild my leaking one. I will stick with the 5R, I gather my 1978 dyna is an R gearbox? I really would not like to fit the M series motor they are horribly underpowered compared to a 5r the 2300 M series makes the same torque and power as my 5R.
    The 5th gear was not going in sometimes so maybe the pilot push is seized or synchro on the way out not sure.

    Would also like to see a pic of you 16r sounds interesting
     
  9. whysmee

    whysmee Enthusiast

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    A 16r is exactly the same as an 18r, it is only stroke and a 12r carby should bolt on as I also have a 12r and the carby is the same to look at as one of the versions the 5r had.
    With not being able to get fifth gear is in the linkages of I assume you have column shift, so often when the gearshifter is pushed all the way down it runs out of travel before the selector on the gearbox is able to get to it's correct position, some have stupid little while bushes in the linkages that when the harden and break, the hiace do the same and on the stout it just takes adjustment to the linkage which rises the position of first and second closer to the steering wheel as with them and the four speed hiace you can not get reverse
     
  10. whysmee

    whysmee Enthusiast

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  11. liteace

    liteace Newbie

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    Thats a relief WM thank you again for this info as I believed there was another issue but felt the gearbox is a very strong unit and has little to worry about with a 2ltr and 6:1 diff ratio to move it along as it does quite well for what it is.

    When I was talking about upgrading the rod length and shorter pistons with thinner rings to boot it was more to do with increasing the rod stroke ratio for less side wall force and extending however small the TDC time during the combustion process to maximise efficiency.
    However I dont see any rod data anywhere for this engine or know if any other rods are wide enough on the big ends.
     
  12. whysmee

    whysmee Enthusiast

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    Yeah I understand what you mean, the Australian 302 Cleveland rods were loved by those in the states for the same reason, the only thing I can suggest is keep an eye open for an old wreck for another 5r to play with as the last complete engine cost me $50, there are two versions the early timing gear and the more common timing chain.
    My uncle the retired automotive engineer started his career due to a passion for drag racing in the early 60's and as the 5r is an industrial engine everything thing is big bulky and extremely strong and toyota originally as a sales pitch guaranteed the engines for 300,000 miles 500,000 kilometres with regular services before needing major rebuild and given that the engines were built suitable for sole lpg applications, they are perfect for 7psi of boost sole lpg. As the lpg induction pre turbo is more efficient than an intercooler, near solid plumbing is possible virtually eliminating turbo lag, changing the diff ratio from 6.1:1 to 4.1:1 helps keep the engine revs down which is more suited to lpg and ohv, as lpg dose not pre detonate th vacuum advance is not needed and lpg being gas has no effect on turbo bearings or seals, nor dose it require upgrading the ignition system for stronger spark, plus not running dual fuel lpg only gets more efficient at compression levels petrol can not handle
     
  13. liteace

    liteace Newbie

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    I would like to go LPG only but to travel around Oz like that is not really safe.
    I could lug a carb, manifold, fuel pump and jerry can just in case if I can setup
    a drawthrough turbo LPG using Impco 225 pre turbo but will need engineering
    and that will need most likely disc brakes and other headaches.
    8.5:1 comp is begging for a turbo especially with such big thick pistons.
    Power wise I am happy but prefer smoothness and efficiency by playing with
    rods, pistons, rings and even head chamber heat proof coatings.
    Keeing it simple is best especially with such a strongly built engine but the
    problem is like I said I have no data for rods, pistons etc.
     
  14. whysmee

    whysmee Enthusiast

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    The engineer I seen recently said about my own build to keep it as quite as possible, put a shroud over the turbo so it can not be seen at first glance of the engine bay and just do it... the theory with the 4.1:1 diff ratio swap is potential 50% cut in running cost without loss of power and the engineer liked such and whoever I was in contact with from ncop replyed me this


    Hi Boots, I totally see your point and I certainly agree you should be able to make these minor changes, but the powers to be have gone mad!!That's why we're kicking up a storm, it time for change and review the modification standards so they are workable...Our main objectives for modifications are they should be Safe, Practical and Affordable.. Whilst Main Roads may say your collapsible steering column is safe, its neither practical nor affordable - so common sense should prevail.We'll fight the fight. I'll raise your issue at our vehicle modification workshop in 2 weeks, we probably won't have a solution for you straight away, but it will showcase the hoops we have to jump through to get things sorted out.

    I also had another reply from another source stating that our government should be embracing sole lpg turbo on older vehicles as it is the most logical way to improve emissions on older style vehicles instead of making such harder as such modification brings pre emissions vehicles up to the best possible and better than current standards
     
  15. liteace

    liteace Newbie

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    Sounds good to go boost no doubt, I love the retro look of the 5r and the inlet and exhaust ports lends itself well for drawthrough turbo.
    My only concern is the cranks have their rumours of been weak so some kind of rpm limiter is probably important but the 4:1 diff for me is impossible as my diff is probably twice the size of yours and much bigger than a 9 inch ford unit.
    Im tempted to look at some Landcruiser diffs but doubt I will find a 4:1.
    I even though about putting in a hilux diff as it should be plenty for the way I treat this lightweight well geared motorhome.

    Before I forget there was one Japanese Stout ute slammed and with worked 5R i think somewhere, cream coloured very amazing machine.

    Do you have any ideas about the chinese built 5r motors?
    Some peeps have imported the new Y motors but I think 1500-2000aud is a great price for a brand spanking new 5r. ATM about to buy a new 5r carby but for 190aud Im seriously thinking of just buying the whole motor if I can find one new in china.
     
  16. whysmee

    whysmee Enthusiast

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    I have had 5r for years and have never heard of anyone doing a crank, I have heard of cracked heads but have never actually seen one, what I have seen is number four cylinders piston being melted through he ring gap due to vacuum leak caused by the brake booster hose and I think is the source of much mis diagnosis.
    A 1978 should have a code plate that has on it the basics including trans/axle Toyota Differential Gear Guide

    The rebuild kits for the 5r for the forklifts have cylinder sleeves options and I would rather that than a Chinese engine only because toyota used the best of bits to make their engines and the Chinese ones do not so rumor has it
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2013
  17. liteace

    liteace Newbie

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    I will check in an hour when I get home what the gearing is for the diff thank you again

    I totally agree with the idea of chinese manufacturing, however they purchased Toyota old dies and have Toyota directors helping them with casting, testing and other nitty gritty as Ive seen Suzuki and other companies do the same for their supposedly japanese suzuki swifts which are just assembled in japan but all parts are cast and made in China.
    The early Vitara and Baleno suzuki had the worst casting cracks you could ever see in a head yet they got some program to weld them up and use what they cast, very dodgey and that was in the late 80s and early 90s when Suzuki went to China to save money.
    Some peeps are running the Grand Wall for very long periods and although they dont pass crash safety ratings their chinese cast mitsubishi running gear is very well received so far.

    Would you know of any 5R full engine suppliers?
     
  18. whysmee

    whysmee Enthusiast

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    I cut my teeth on the f8a in the lj80, the honda stationary engines are also made in China by the same company that dose the copy, the difference is honda owns the recipes for the metals in their engines and the copies are made of low grade cheaper comparisons.

    I have never bothered looking for reco 5r I have seen repco rebuilds in the past, myself I have found the original untouched engines are the best and that ones that have had new rings and bearings just don't last
     
  19. liteace

    liteace Newbie

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  20. liteace

    liteace Newbie

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