Hello everyone. I apologize if this isn't the correct thread but I figured its the most relevant location for it.

My issue: keep buying parts to go faster but not going faster. I have spent countless hours, pints of blood and sweat to get this green slut where it is today and it seems like no matter what I do, im stuck at this wall.
i wanna go faster. i have to go faster. im SUPPOSE to go faster. but thats not the case.
basically, i need help tuning it. ive tried every combo known to man and even got LCE scratching their heads. (they not much help to me at this point) for the amount of money ive put into this POS i should be whipping the doors of my competition.

My rig : 1994 Toyota pickup 2wd. 22RE. W55.
Application: drag racing

Mods:
-built cyl head: ported and polished, full LCE valve train upgrade (oversize valves, dual spring, chromoly ret., shortened guides) close to a LCE Stg5
-LCE dual timing chain conversion kit, with pro oil pump.
-LCE dual row adjustable cam gear
-LCE 6in oversize water pump pulley
--cams-- there are several that i have tried.
a) Crower 280 -not so good for my application, too small of a cam in my opinion.
b) Delta regrind 292- a buddy use to run this cam and would kick my a$$ with less mods. tried it, had some gains. still slower than he tho.
c) LCE Stage 3 295 *CURRENT*- ok. so i did some research, idk if they changed just the specs or actually redesigned the cam. but the current specs on LCE website have changed to smaller (to a 280) WTF?!
if this is the case, i had suspected it all along when i tried to dial in the cam (using degree wheel and dial ind.gauge) and nothing made sense. Not cool LCE!!
-intake/battery swap, shorty intake tube (silicone) HKS-type mushroom filter
-LCE throttle body spacer
-larger VAFM housing (swapped internal 22re meter) with bypass screw adjustable
-A/F tuner (ECT potenteometer mod)
-hi flow fuel pump w adjustable regulator , set at 50psi. reconditioned OEM fuel injectors for flow and equalization
-ported and gasket matched intake, the whole intake manifold
-vacuum lines/VSV, EGR delete
-Innovate Wideband o2 gauge/datalogger
-LCE race header (wrapped) to a 3in exhaust (no cat) axle dump
-MSD 6al-2 (2-stage rev limiter) with blaster 2 coil using stock igniter. 8.5mm LCE Magnacore wires, "colder" spark plugs. new cap + rotor.
-LCE Pro clutch
-LCE 9lb flywheel
-4.56 gears
-26in Mickey Thompson ET drag radials
-3in rear tapered lowering blocks (cast iron)
-Weld Pro Star wheels
-lowered front torsion bars with bj flip.
-Jegs line lock/stage control
-running 91 octane

** CURRENT SETTINGS **
1/4mi times: Best: 16.22 @ 82mph.
-runs at 14.9-15.2 a/f ratio
-idle @ approx 1050 rpm
-cam 2deg advance
-ign 10deg advance

have tried all cam timing settings from 3deg retard to 4deg adv. tried ign timing from 3-12 deg adv. a/f ratios from super rich (11-12) to slight lean (15-17) all measured at idle. its hard to measure a gain of 0.2-0.5 tenths of a second using butt-dyno

idk what else to say. im prob leaving something out just cuz im still trying to wrack my brain on what to do next. i understand that a carb vehicle and EFI are 2 completely different creatures. carb likes retard. efi likes advance. but to go more advance on efi set-up will mean i will lose top end -which is where i want my power to be. where i need it to be.

PLEASE, if u have any input, stories, ideas, special duct tape, a doughnut, feel free to chime in.
if u tell me ive wasted my time and money, i know this. if u tell me it cannot go faster, not true. ive seen faster. i have time slips to prove it. i dont wanna hear, get a stand-alone, bigger piston, different head, go carb, ect. Need to be faster with current set-up. invested too much time and money for it to be this F*ing slow

 

The stock computer can't deal with many mods. You're trying to get force an analog pocket calculator to do advanced physics. Dump the computer and go with micro/mega squirt or sds standalone. Yanking the efi altogether and dropping a 4 barrel or pair of side drafts on it would do the trick too.

Also swapping out the 4.56's for some 4.10's or even 3.90's wouldnt hurt either. R series make decent torque over horsepower so they like to grunt a bit. My truck pulls better with 4.10's than it did with 4.56's too.

My personal view is that you've managed to dump a pile of money onto a tractor engine. You could swap a 3sge and 6 speed into it and make the same horsepower for the money you have into the head alone.

 

i appreciate the help. but that is not an option. i know guys running the same setup as me with the stock ecu with no problems. in fact, they're running better times than me.

i have a set of 430's, still ran the same time even with the gear swap to a 456. around 16.3-16.2 --did not change overall. i know the potential for more power is there. i just cant pinpoint where i need to unlock it. LCE been giving me the run-around, check this, check that, its just too confusing. ive exhausted all resources.

if u agree that with my current setup, i should be running quicker times then cool. if u think that after all this invested in the truck and this is all i'm gonna squeeze out of it, i dont believe it.

just saying. *still frustrated*

 

Hows the bottom end? How many miles on the motor? What trans?

 

bottom end is good. aprox 210k mi. still good. 20w-50 castrol oil. -please dont tell me my rings are worn or blow by or something is worn cuz i know guys that are running original stock bottom end and are quicker. bottom end is not an issue.

trans is w55 "celica" trans. came stock with the USDM toyota 2wd truck. still good. runs strong. only issue is grinding into 2nd, and little bit into 3rd. no issues there either

 

What are your shift points?

 

What happened to your MPH at the track after you made changes? Did it increase?
(Higher HP normally shows up in the form of more MPH)

If MPH increased then you are making power gains but your launch is killing the 60ft times that lead to quicker ET's. You simply need to launch harder through higher launch RPM, better slicks, or rear diff gearing changes.



On the other hand if your MPH is staying the same then you clearly have a problem or a restriction somewhere. Air intake restriction, vacuum leak, fuel supply, exhaust restriction, weak ignition, even inadequate voltage through improper grounds and power wires can hold you back.

How could that not be an issue? Any time lost during slow shifts will hurt the ET.

That is also a good point.

When you install a larger cam that isn't based off a stock or torque oriented grind you move the power curve upwards. That means the engine will make less torque down low and produce more HP up at the top of the RPM range.
To produce good results you need to raise your launch RPM (while hooking up hard) and spin the engine higher to higher than normal RPM's in each gear to take advantage of the HP at the top of the power curve.

.

 

I would like to know what kind of Horsepower this thing makes on a dyno , cause I'm headed in the same direction with alot of the mods I have done so far .

 

And I know you don't want to hear this but it doesn't sound like LCE is giving you the runaround. What they're having you do is called diagnosing and it pinpoints problems.

210k might not seem like a lot of miles to you but if the oil was ran for extended intervals there's going to be wear, no getting around it. Running an engine with a small head gasket leak can also take it's toll on ring seal. Compression and leak down tests need to be performed on an engine that is being used for performance use otherwise you're flying blind.

 

It's a shame to have all that money dropped into an EFI and not have an SDS standalone.

TB spacers are rubbish. Big bore is good enough.

Need to consider all motors may be the same, but are still different in their own way. Just because your friends blocks are stock who knows if that motor wasn't used as a horse or as a grocery-getter?

I'd dump money into building the block and upgrading your Pistons including the earlier mentioned SDS standalone. Like you said, you've done "everything" you could, but evidently, you still have ways to go.

You mentioned mostly all small cams for the work done on the head. Cut the bull**** and go outlaw or some nasty isky cams!!! JS.

Good luck and #prayforspeed because it sounds like you need it.

 

Also, it sounds like you want someone to do the research for you. Which is just being plain old lazy. Where's the honor in that? It also sounds like you're blaming LCE for other things, but yet, you don't even know what you're doing.

Im laughing at the fact that you said "I've tried every combo known to man!" Hahahah, brut, you don't even know what you're doing with that "POS" have you tried going Frankenstein? Trying different Pistons?

LCE's clutch and flywheel is junk too! Revert to other resources!

Probably like every other newbie that goes to LCE because they believe they're the only experts in 22R and things of that nature. Expand your resources, dig deeper and do more research!

The build is never done until you're done!

Sorry, I had to get this off my chest, If I get kicked for stating my opinion, then Adios!! Chee heee!!

 

Wow-you do have a serious problem. According to your E.T. and the curb weight of your truck you are only putting down about 110HP at the wheels. You have a right to be upset with all of the dough you've spent so far. I like LCE because they have a lot of cool stuff you can't get other places, but they really get people's hopes up just to empty their wallets. And of course they are giving you the runaround-you've stopped spending money on their overpriced hopes and dreams that a little 22r can be just like a big V8.

Lets go through your list and see what's up:

Running 20-50 oil through the engine is probably costing you 10 HP. That stuff is really thick and a stock bottom end doesn't need it.

Mushroom filter is probably open element and sucking under-hood temperature air. For every 10 degrees of heat in the air it costs the engine about 1 HP. If it is 100 degrees hotter than outside under the hood-which it is probably hotter than that-then that filter is costing you 10 HP. Get a cold-air intake.

Your stock compression ratio is 9.3:1. That big coil and those huge wires are not helping at this stage of the game and are overkill. 91 octane is overkill as well, you could buy the cheap stuff. That MSD box only helps below about 3,000 RPM, the higher RPM ignition amplification isn't helping with where your motor is right now either.

Digging deeper...

You have a crazy, high-flowing head. In order for the motor to take advantage of this it has to turn some serious RPMs - like 7,000+ RPM. With so much port volume port velocity will be terrible at lower RPMs and will cost you power down low, so if you cant rev the engine up much past 5500 RPM then this head is probably lowering power output at top engine speed.

Your cam duration is on the high side for a low RPM bottom end. Again, if you can't rev much past 5500 then this may be too much camshaft. The larger overlap is certainly costing low RPM power, which coupled with low port velocity of the huge head is costing you serious low RPM torque. Plus, LCE advertises their head CFM ratings at .600 lift-I doubt they sold you a cam with that much lift.

Intake manifold and exhaust manifold runner tuning are not helping your high RPM power. The stock efi intake runner length is tuned to about 3500 RPM. That LCE "race" header looks like it is tuned for about 2000 RPM. Actually, those two things being tuned to make power down low may be the only reason you are making any power down low considering how over-sized the cylinder head is. Oh, and that throttle body spacer is also tuning your intake plenum to make power at a lower RPM as it is increasing plenum volume.

Digging more deeper...

Your stock injectors will only support about 150 HP at stock pressure. With your FPR they will deliver more fuel, but not much more. The injectors you are using will max-out around 170 flywheel HP. If you are only measuring AFR at idle then you are probably running lean up top and losing power.

The engine itself, at 2.4 liters, can only make so much naturally aspirated power as well. At 6,000 RPM with 100% volumetric efficiency (which means it is pumping all 2.4 liters of air 3,000 times per minute-very hard to do, btw) the engine will only ingest enough air to support about 170 flywheel HP.

Sorry...

Your setup is completely mismatched at this stage of the game, the only reason you are pulling those times at the track is because of your crazy 4.56 gears. When you start making more power you will run out of gear before you run out of track and will need to step down.

There are no easy fixes for your situation. You need more fuel, more compression, and more RPM.

I'll bet a set of side-draft carbs would really wake this puppy up. Short intake runners for top end power and you won't get lean up top.

You need more compression. Look into a set of 10:1 or better, overbore pistons. You will get more HP from the higher compression ratio and you will be able to run less timing and get a better burn. You can also get them fly-cut for a giant .600 lift cam. Your ignition upgrades and high octane fuel will help here.

While you are changing pistons you should get some good rods and have the whole assembly balanced, so you can hit 7,000+ RPM and really get some power out of that head. Get a girdle too.

Keep in mind that, naturally aspirated, it will be very difficult to get 200 flywheel HP out of this engine. It can be done with crazy high RPM and custom fabricated manifolds, but it takes a lot of math and a lot of money. Remember that the factory turbo trucks were only rated at 135 HP.

 

buy a megasquirt2 or 3 ecu ... its a night and day difference ... the stock ecu and ignition is rubish

 

compression and leakdown is all good. oil changed. new fluids. trans. diff. cool. no HG leak.

nothing wrong with saying anything.

.... problem solved. none of the "extra mods" mentioned needed. after a bit more testing, parts, and help from another fellow mini racer, i was able to source the cause of my "lack of power" issue. peek behind the curtain so to speak. and now that i have that in my sights, its more testing and tuning accordingly.
sincerely tho, to all, thanks for the input. anyone wanna try one time?

 

Glad you figured things out! What was the problem, this 'peek behind the curtain'?

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"vehicle is not stock compression. its 10.6:1 "where my motor is right now....?"

You didn't mention that you had different pistons, or anything about the bottom end. Without that info I had to assume the short block was stock.

"afr being monitored at all rpm and all speeds. obviously."

Your OP said AFR was measured at idle-which I thought was odd since you have an Innovate datalogger.

"longer runner = better top end. shorter runner = better low end."
You have this backward.

"u telling me that LCE pro race headers, they install this in their race vehicle and its only to perform at 2000 rpm?? u suggest a larger header?"
No. What I'm saying is that the long-tube, equal length race header that LCE sells has very long runners and looks to be tuned to around 2000 RPM or so. This matters because it is not where you are trying to make power. LCE, like every business, assumes that its customers are idiots and designs products with compromises built-in to them to curb buyer's remorse when someone thinks they want something-but they really don't know. For example: when someone with an internally-stock motor wants to buy their race header. LCE will sell it to them because LCE designed their product to perform acceptably on a stock motor (long tube length), and acceptably on a modified motor (larger tube circumference). You want a header that is tuned to around the RPM right after you shift gears-i.e. scavenging for torque in the lower part of your power band. With a modified short block and a launch RPM of 5,500 (chosen because it is in your power band, right?)-You want a header with a tube length around 22 inches long.

LCE does know what they are doing and how customers over-estimate their horsepower, which is why they advertise more gains in % than in HP-the power capability of an N/A 22RE is pretty disappointing so why break a customer's heart before they break the bank 'chasing the dragon.' You don't have to believe me-this is from LCE's own website-buried in a technical article:

"The Toyota EFI intake manifold w / big bore throttle assembly will only support the 160-HP level, any power level above this requires dual sidedraft carburetors or a custom EFI intake manifold."

Here is the link-bottom of the page:LC ENGINEERING TechPages/Airflow

So, if you bought your intake mods from them with the hopes of big HP and they did not warn you about this then shame on them. Oh, and if you want to buy a flange from LCE to make your own, custom EFI intake don't bother. I asked them about one almost a year ago and they basically told me to piss-off.

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You obviously know more than you let-on in your OP, so you will have to forgive the assumptions by some of us thinking that you didn't, internet forum miscommunication. But again, we are all curious what you have to say about what solved your problem. Don't bogart it dude!

 

LCE flow only supporting 160 hp? i dont believe. there are alot of things that LCE says u can or cannot do, but i (as well as many other people that i know personnaly) are proving them wrong. for example, LCE says the stock computer is only able to handle up to a certain cam duration. WE are running exceeding much larger. granted other engine systems and parts have been modified, however WE are still able to make the stock EFI sys run.

 

lol ya i understand i cant fully disclose all information --- because then what about that guy who is lazy and dont wanna do the research?? *sarcasm*
problem was a combination of things that i had to tune into the spectrum. once i had it there, the problem peeked it slutty little face!! so now its more tuning, more late nights, more *song by Judas Priest* BREAKIN THE LAW! BREAKIN THE LAW!!

 

Yes, absolutely. Google "manifold runner length tuning." It works the same for intake and exhaust manifolds, although the calculations are different because the heat of the exhaust causes gas expansion and changes the sound wave velocity.

Or anyone that can make a custom header for you. But, if your RPMs are at 4,000 or slightly above right after you shift then your power band is too low for how much you have modified your head because of the things I mentioned in my first post. If your power band tops out before 6,000 RPM then your manifold may not flow as much as you believe it does. But...

If this is the case then 6,000 RPM is probably pushing it for a high-mileage stock short-block, and...

Absolutely true, but in order for the engine to burn more air and fuel you need more RPM. The bottom end, stock or not, will rev up and up until it grenades. If your combination is limiting maximum power at less than 6,000 RPM then you aren't getting enough air or fuel or both.

Two things: 1-their race vehicles are made for off-road where low-end torque is very valuable and RPMs vary widely, which does not translate to the drag strip where you keep your RPMs within about a 1,500 RPM range. You need a more purpose-built header. 2-This whole sentence is an advertising gimmick to make their product sound better than the competition, it really means nothing.

I cheated and used an online calculator. However, something to think about when designing a new header is that the runner length is not just the tube length-it is the total length from the smallest cross-section at the exhaust valve transition (seat surface to seat surface) to the point where the runner transitions into the header collector chamber, including the port, etc. Don't aim for exactness though, tuned runner exhaust scavanging works over a several hundred RPM range-give or take-and close in this case is still way better than what your race buddies have, I'll bet.

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C'mon now-That's bull****, dude.

 

Meh, do you really need to know how to spend thousands of dollars and days custom fabricating parts in order to make a tractor engine have almost as much power as your wife's mini van?

R series engines are reliable and can make some decent torque but that's about it. When I can make the choice to either drop big cash on R series mods or pick up an rz or s series that makes far more power stock it's easy to me. Plus they respond extremely well to boost.

 

PM and i will give u some insight.